Wednesday, March 29, 2006
Forgiveness.
Twice this week I've had conversations with my writing friends regarding forgiveness and the importance of forgiving. So I thought the subject would make a good blog.
This happens more in category than in other genres, but it does happen.
The thing is, in a book I tend to immerse myself in the character's problems, and too often I find that at the end, the character almost betrays my support by turning around and forgiving the very person I've been trained/encouraged/expected to loathe.
Parents that cannot be pleased and left the character with life long inadequacies.
A father denying his daughter a place in his business because he only sees her as a decoration.
A self absorbed mother, threatened that her daughter may eclipse her. Or worse, unforgivable things.
Lies that break up a marriage.
Lies regarding a pregnancy, or parentage.
Lies about an affair.
So these acts are performed against our characters. The results ruined their lives and usually are a great part of what holds them back from finding their happiness in the present situation. Sometimes the character is aware of the treachery or problem from page one, other times we learn of it right along with him/her, yet almost always, by the resolution, the character has confronted the wrong doer and if not forgiven them, let go of the pain. And frankly, I don't get it. I don't get the psychology (if that is even the right term), of a few words erasing years of pain and making everyone better. I don't get the whole trend that forgiveness is part of the growth of the character (like a 12 step program), a tying up of the loose ends of the story. That somehow the character isn't complete unless understanding or forgiveness takes place during the confrontation. Or, if they don't, there's an implication they aren't a good person.
Maybe, it's that it isn't done well enough to ring true. Almost like a, gosh we're near the end and she hasn't resolved her issues with daddy yet--must resolve those... and my burning question is why? Or why is forgiveness practically always the only acceptable option to make him/her a decent human being? Rarely is the solution to accept that your parents suck, to say, guess what, I'm going to have a good life regardless. No, by the end we have to have happy families, or the seeds planted that the relationship will be saved in the future.
So again I ask why? Why do our characters need to forgive?
Any and all answers will be greatly appreciated.
X
This happens more in category than in other genres, but it does happen.
The thing is, in a book I tend to immerse myself in the character's problems, and too often I find that at the end, the character almost betrays my support by turning around and forgiving the very person I've been trained/encouraged/expected to loathe.
Parents that cannot be pleased and left the character with life long inadequacies.
A father denying his daughter a place in his business because he only sees her as a decoration.
A self absorbed mother, threatened that her daughter may eclipse her. Or worse, unforgivable things.
Lies that break up a marriage.
Lies regarding a pregnancy, or parentage.
Lies about an affair.
So these acts are performed against our characters. The results ruined their lives and usually are a great part of what holds them back from finding their happiness in the present situation. Sometimes the character is aware of the treachery or problem from page one, other times we learn of it right along with him/her, yet almost always, by the resolution, the character has confronted the wrong doer and if not forgiven them, let go of the pain. And frankly, I don't get it. I don't get the psychology (if that is even the right term), of a few words erasing years of pain and making everyone better. I don't get the whole trend that forgiveness is part of the growth of the character (like a 12 step program), a tying up of the loose ends of the story. That somehow the character isn't complete unless understanding or forgiveness takes place during the confrontation. Or, if they don't, there's an implication they aren't a good person.
Maybe, it's that it isn't done well enough to ring true. Almost like a, gosh we're near the end and she hasn't resolved her issues with daddy yet--must resolve those... and my burning question is why? Or why is forgiveness practically always the only acceptable option to make him/her a decent human being? Rarely is the solution to accept that your parents suck, to say, guess what, I'm going to have a good life regardless. No, by the end we have to have happy families, or the seeds planted that the relationship will be saved in the future.
So again I ask why? Why do our characters need to forgive?
Any and all answers will be greatly appreciated.
X
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Hmm I've been trying about 4 times to type a reply to this and just can't get what I want out. LOL
Maybe you don't have to resolve it. Maybe write a book where it ends with them starting a new chapter in their life. Which would mean targetting a different line than what you are looking at.
But I guess it comes down to the old adage "It's all in the execution". LOL
Okay so no real pearls of wisdom there.
Nicki
Maybe you don't have to resolve it. Maybe write a book where it ends with them starting a new chapter in their life. Which would mean targetting a different line than what you are looking at.
But I guess it comes down to the old adage "It's all in the execution". LOL
Okay so no real pearls of wisdom there.
Nicki
*rubs hands together in eager anticipation*
Great topic! And one which I find myself having a lot to say.
Forgiveness is something I've learned a great deal about lately, and am still learning about. I am amazed that I went my entire life prior to this without knowing what I now understand.
Anyway, I'll try to stay on-point and discuss the main question. Why is it important to a HEA?
Basically, I think it comes down to who is made unhappy by unforgiveness? Now, I *know* this is extremely minor compared to the issues you listed, but just for demonstration, imagine I am pissed-off at dh for a list of offenses (small, but compounding). I drive to work fuming; work is a bit of a struggle because my mind frequently goes back to my anger at him; my drive home is terrible, as I envision all the ways I will punish him and relive all the things he did to make me mad. Being me, my most severe form of punishment is the silent treatment... this causes dh to withdraw and leave me alone to let me cool off, which is another offense as far as I'm concerned. This goes on and on. Who's suffering most from my unforgiveness? Me! DH miiiiight be suffering a little, especially when I'm around... and after a few days of the ST, he may be perplexed enough to be somewhat troubled, but *I'm* the one with the constant, gnawing anger.
I think that in most cases, the person who suffers the most from carrying around bitterness is the person carrying around bitterness...not the object of the bitterness. My dad is such a great example, it almost makes me want to cry. He holds grudges like no-one's business. The only person who ever gets to suffer anywhere near as much as he does is my mom, and I'd say the ratio is about 10:1. My dad holds grudges against people who probably don't even remember the episode he's grudging over. Some of them don't even remember my dad, I'm sure!
Anyway, the point is, the happiness of the character is not complete if they haven't forgiven. That doesn't mean they can't be happy and fulfilled, but for complete freedom from unhappiness, I think it's vital to forgive... not for the offenders sake, but for the one doing the forgiving.
I think part of the problem you have (me too) with what you read is that the forgiven party does a 180, meriting forgiveness, and so forgiveness is given. The turn-around is unexpected and unlikely.
However, forgiveness doesn't require reconciliation or penitence. I can forgive dh for all his offenses against me without ever breathing a word of my complaints, and without ever hearing, "I'm sorry," and without the situations I was angry over changing one whit.
I think forgiveness by a character can be done without reconciliation of third parties. Let Daddy go on seeing his daughter as the decoration, but let her realize that continuing to be angry at her father over that doesn't help her, and will only hurt her.
Forgiveness isn't about changing how you feel, or even how you act, but simply how you think. It is choosing to stop holding someone responsible for their wrong-doing. Amazingly, at least for me, this change of thought *results* in a change of feeling, which then changes my actions. I can't force my feelings, but I can force my thoughts... and my thoughts inform my feelings.
This is all internal, I can forgive, but if the relationship is an ongoing one, resolution is the next step, the point where I talk to dh about what he did that hurt me and ask him to change or compromise so less change is required, whatever...but forgiveness is not dependent upon this.
Oh yeah... you mentioned understanding. You don't have to understand why someone did what they did to forgive them. All forgiveness hinges upon is choice. Do you Will to forgive? That's all it takes.
The other thing I haven't addressed is if a person doesn't forgive they aren't a good person. I guess I don't see it as required for a person to be considered a good person... but it is required for a person to be as happy as they possibly can. However, going back to the unlikely change of heart on the part of the offender, it *does* seem like a less-than ideal trait to without forgiveness in the face of repentance...but completely understandable and human....
Time to go watch LOST. Catcha later. :)
Jenne
Great topic! And one which I find myself having a lot to say.
Forgiveness is something I've learned a great deal about lately, and am still learning about. I am amazed that I went my entire life prior to this without knowing what I now understand.
Anyway, I'll try to stay on-point and discuss the main question. Why is it important to a HEA?
Basically, I think it comes down to who is made unhappy by unforgiveness? Now, I *know* this is extremely minor compared to the issues you listed, but just for demonstration, imagine I am pissed-off at dh for a list of offenses (small, but compounding). I drive to work fuming; work is a bit of a struggle because my mind frequently goes back to my anger at him; my drive home is terrible, as I envision all the ways I will punish him and relive all the things he did to make me mad. Being me, my most severe form of punishment is the silent treatment... this causes dh to withdraw and leave me alone to let me cool off, which is another offense as far as I'm concerned. This goes on and on. Who's suffering most from my unforgiveness? Me! DH miiiiight be suffering a little, especially when I'm around... and after a few days of the ST, he may be perplexed enough to be somewhat troubled, but *I'm* the one with the constant, gnawing anger.
I think that in most cases, the person who suffers the most from carrying around bitterness is the person carrying around bitterness...not the object of the bitterness. My dad is such a great example, it almost makes me want to cry. He holds grudges like no-one's business. The only person who ever gets to suffer anywhere near as much as he does is my mom, and I'd say the ratio is about 10:1. My dad holds grudges against people who probably don't even remember the episode he's grudging over. Some of them don't even remember my dad, I'm sure!
Anyway, the point is, the happiness of the character is not complete if they haven't forgiven. That doesn't mean they can't be happy and fulfilled, but for complete freedom from unhappiness, I think it's vital to forgive... not for the offenders sake, but for the one doing the forgiving.
I think part of the problem you have (me too) with what you read is that the forgiven party does a 180, meriting forgiveness, and so forgiveness is given. The turn-around is unexpected and unlikely.
However, forgiveness doesn't require reconciliation or penitence. I can forgive dh for all his offenses against me without ever breathing a word of my complaints, and without ever hearing, "I'm sorry," and without the situations I was angry over changing one whit.
I think forgiveness by a character can be done without reconciliation of third parties. Let Daddy go on seeing his daughter as the decoration, but let her realize that continuing to be angry at her father over that doesn't help her, and will only hurt her.
Forgiveness isn't about changing how you feel, or even how you act, but simply how you think. It is choosing to stop holding someone responsible for their wrong-doing. Amazingly, at least for me, this change of thought *results* in a change of feeling, which then changes my actions. I can't force my feelings, but I can force my thoughts... and my thoughts inform my feelings.
This is all internal, I can forgive, but if the relationship is an ongoing one, resolution is the next step, the point where I talk to dh about what he did that hurt me and ask him to change or compromise so less change is required, whatever...but forgiveness is not dependent upon this.
Oh yeah... you mentioned understanding. You don't have to understand why someone did what they did to forgive them. All forgiveness hinges upon is choice. Do you Will to forgive? That's all it takes.
The other thing I haven't addressed is if a person doesn't forgive they aren't a good person. I guess I don't see it as required for a person to be considered a good person... but it is required for a person to be as happy as they possibly can. However, going back to the unlikely change of heart on the part of the offender, it *does* seem like a less-than ideal trait to without forgiveness in the face of repentance...but completely understandable and human....
Time to go watch LOST. Catcha later. :)
Jenne
*clap clap* Well said Jenne.
See I knew I shouldn't have tried to answer it cause I'm pretty hopeless at addressing it from a writers pov and I want to be a writer.
Hmm what does that mean for me!! LOL
Cheers
Nicki
See I knew I shouldn't have tried to answer it cause I'm pretty hopeless at addressing it from a writers pov and I want to be a writer.
Hmm what does that mean for me!! LOL
Cheers
Nicki
"I think forgiveness by a character can be done without reconciliation of third parties. Let Daddy go on seeing his daughter as the decoration, but let her realize that continuing to be angry at her father over that doesn't help her, and will only hurt her."
Now this self realisation I can totally buy. I could see many instances where the character delves deep and realises the object of their anger or resentment isn't going to change, so the only choice on their part is to let go of the anger, either by cutting ties with the object, or learning to deal with how they hurt them so it no longer has power over them.
My 'good person' reference is more to do with the ham fisted way a lot of writers deal with the forgiveness resolution. I often feel during these scenes as though the author is deliberately trying to make the character perfect. (he/she has to forgive or lose all sympathy that's been attained throughout the build up of the story). Quite frankly, in these cases, I'm more puzzled over why they forgive.
That's where your 180 point comes into play. A few I'm sorry--I was wrong, mirac ulously wipes out years of pain and hurt? and our character is healed? I don't think so.
Great response Jenne, thanks.
X
Now this self realisation I can totally buy. I could see many instances where the character delves deep and realises the object of their anger or resentment isn't going to change, so the only choice on their part is to let go of the anger, either by cutting ties with the object, or learning to deal with how they hurt them so it no longer has power over them.
My 'good person' reference is more to do with the ham fisted way a lot of writers deal with the forgiveness resolution. I often feel during these scenes as though the author is deliberately trying to make the character perfect. (he/she has to forgive or lose all sympathy that's been attained throughout the build up of the story). Quite frankly, in these cases, I'm more puzzled over why they forgive.
That's where your 180 point comes into play. A few I'm sorry--I was wrong, mirac ulously wipes out years of pain and hurt? and our character is healed? I don't think so.
Great response Jenne, thanks.
X
Jenne's answer was excellent and thought-provoking! For me, forgiveness is 'heroic'; therefore, the trait should apply to the HERO or HEROine in a romance.
In other genres, though, and I suppose even in romance, there are ways around actual forgiveness, and those involve acceptance if not outright "I forgive you".
Best examples I can think of are from movies, and some of these are B-movies at that: "Angel Eyes" (Jennifer Lopez) where she accepts that her father is a shit but she still loves him even though he doesn't embrace her nor does he accept that she turned him in for domestic abuse years earlier; "If Tomorrow Never Comes" (a Sydney Sheldon novel) where an embittered woman gets even with the folks who framed and murdered her father; etc, etc, etc...
If forgiveness is what the author hopes the characters accomplish, it's one thing. I personally don't like the forgiveness angle so much as I do the acceptance one. For me it's harder to accept something has happened that is out of my hands, so it's more realistic (IMO) when a character simply moves on rather than needs the pseudo happy ending.
Save the happy endings for the inspirational books, I guess - lol. Give me revenge or acceptance, a journey from despair to a new beginning, or some major transformation within the primary character...not a neat, tidy turn that sweeps the emotional issues under the carpet.
In other genres, though, and I suppose even in romance, there are ways around actual forgiveness, and those involve acceptance if not outright "I forgive you".
Best examples I can think of are from movies, and some of these are B-movies at that: "Angel Eyes" (Jennifer Lopez) where she accepts that her father is a shit but she still loves him even though he doesn't embrace her nor does he accept that she turned him in for domestic abuse years earlier; "If Tomorrow Never Comes" (a Sydney Sheldon novel) where an embittered woman gets even with the folks who framed and murdered her father; etc, etc, etc...
If forgiveness is what the author hopes the characters accomplish, it's one thing. I personally don't like the forgiveness angle so much as I do the acceptance one. For me it's harder to accept something has happened that is out of my hands, so it's more realistic (IMO) when a character simply moves on rather than needs the pseudo happy ending.
Save the happy endings for the inspirational books, I guess - lol. Give me revenge or acceptance, a journey from despair to a new beginning, or some major transformation within the primary character...not a neat, tidy turn that sweeps the emotional issues under the carpet.
Ooh, Lyn, such a good point. Forgiveness as heroic. I totally agree! That's probably why you see it so often.
I think the key thing that needs to be understood if you're going to have your characters forgive (or not) is that it is entirely on their shoulders, entirely personal, and has nothing to do with who they're forgiving or what's going on between the two.
Is it heroic to forgive someone who apologizes? Not really, it's kind of, like you said, X, forced.
Is it heroic to forgive someone who continues to offend you? Heck yeah. How big is a person who can be the adult and stop the cycle? I think when you and Lyn say the words, "accept" and "move on" you mean something very close to forgiveness You choose to stop reliving the pain, you choose to stop hating and stop being angry. Maybe acceptance and moving past don't go as far as absolving the person of responsibility...but it does seem to free them from punishment... am I right?
I think the key thing that needs to be understood if you're going to have your characters forgive (or not) is that it is entirely on their shoulders, entirely personal, and has nothing to do with who they're forgiving or what's going on between the two.
Is it heroic to forgive someone who apologizes? Not really, it's kind of, like you said, X, forced.
Is it heroic to forgive someone who continues to offend you? Heck yeah. How big is a person who can be the adult and stop the cycle? I think when you and Lyn say the words, "accept" and "move on" you mean something very close to forgiveness You choose to stop reliving the pain, you choose to stop hating and stop being angry. Maybe acceptance and moving past don't go as far as absolving the person of responsibility...but it does seem to free them from punishment... am I right?
Oh geez, I'm having Jenne write all my forgiveness scenes!! LOL!
I really was trying to go for that "My being mad doesn't fix anything" kind of approach in my last one. And, something I've learned with my own family, Forgiveness doesn't mean forgetting. I can forgive. I'm just not stupid enough to forget that a person is not only capable of hurting me, but interested in it. In my case, I'll probably piss of X a little bit more. I had my heroine realized--without magically forgiving--that's she's been somewhat judgemental in her life. In an effort to stop, she looks at a peace offering she wouldn't even have touched before. She acknowledges that it doesn't change anything about the relationship that's been discussed, but it DOES change her realizations about herself.
Dammit, I forgot to layer in her acknowledging the hero brought about the change. Siiiigh. Well, I'll go do it now. Pout.
Thanks gals!!
I really was trying to go for that "My being mad doesn't fix anything" kind of approach in my last one. And, something I've learned with my own family, Forgiveness doesn't mean forgetting. I can forgive. I'm just not stupid enough to forget that a person is not only capable of hurting me, but interested in it. In my case, I'll probably piss of X a little bit more. I had my heroine realized--without magically forgiving--that's she's been somewhat judgemental in her life. In an effort to stop, she looks at a peace offering she wouldn't even have touched before. She acknowledges that it doesn't change anything about the relationship that's been discussed, but it DOES change her realizations about herself.
Dammit, I forgot to layer in her acknowledging the hero brought about the change. Siiiigh. Well, I'll go do it now. Pout.
Thanks gals!!
I'm with you on this, X, and in fact my characters don't forgive each other. Makes for a far more believable ending, IMO.
If I were writing romance, I would have the two characters come to terms with what had happened, but not necessarily forgive the other.
If I were writing romance, I would have the two characters come to terms with what had happened, but not necessarily forgive the other.
# posted by 
: 4/04/2006 10:25 PM
: 4/04/2006 10:25 PM
funny I always looked at forgiveness differently ...
I say "I forgive you for being a crappy person, I accept that you will continue to be a crappy person, and I will not let your crappyness spoil my life."
Now if that person wants feels the need to kiss the ground I walk on I would let them but it would make no difference in my life if they did or didn't.
I thought that forgiveness was not absolving them of being crappy but absoling me of being effected by their crappyness? Perhaps I'm just not as big a person as I thought, and I am not really forgiving.
Rae
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I say "I forgive you for being a crappy person, I accept that you will continue to be a crappy person, and I will not let your crappyness spoil my life."
Now if that person wants feels the need to kiss the ground I walk on I would let them but it would make no difference in my life if they did or didn't.
I thought that forgiveness was not absolving them of being crappy but absoling me of being effected by their crappyness? Perhaps I'm just not as big a person as I thought, and I am not really forgiving.
Rae
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